Powerful learning happens through creative hands-on activities. How can ...
Jennifer Azzariti, an artist, studio teacher and atelierista, began her career at the Model Early Learning Center (MELC) in Washington, DC … a landmark school in the history of the Reggio Approach in the U.S. She’s worked closely with Amelia Gambetti and Lella Gandini, and is the founder of the DC Area Reggio Study Group. Click HERE for more background on Jennifer’s work.
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Jennifer Azzariti: I think when people see the work, the capabilities of children coming out of the schools and read Joe, you’ve never seen anything like it before. It’s such a different paradigm. It’s the first disbelief. And then you get curious like, wait a minute.
John Pottenger: Welcome to the path learning podcast where three ordinary guys explore the world of education, what’s working,
Jay Irwin: … what’s broken,
Scott Bultman: and what we can do to best advocate for children.
John: I’m John Pottenger.
Jay: I’m Jay Irwin.
Scott: And I’m Scott Bultman and you’re listening to the Path to Learning.
John: Guess where we are today. Jay?
Jay: Where are we, John?
Well, I’d like to say we’re in Reggio Emilia, but we’re not.
Jay: Is that is that a person?
John: Some people think so?
Jay: Yes, I did. I once thought it was a person.
Scott: I think I went to high school with a Reggio Emilia
Jay: It’s not a person.
John: It’s not like Montessori, which is a person. Reggio is a where’s it Scott?
Scott: It’s a place in Italy. It’s a city.
John: And why is it that we’re talking about a place in Italy?
Scott: Well, because everybody in early childhood education these days is talking about Reggio-inspired, learning. Reggio-inspired schools, seem to be kind of a buzz, especially in Boston, where we’ve had our conferences, and we now have some Reggio here in Grand Rapids and not a lot of people know about it. So we thought we better bring it up and read more about it.
Jay: If you if you’ve been on the Instagrams and you’ve seen the hashtag, Reggio. Then you’ll definitely know what a Reggio space looks like.
John: And what is we didn’t get into the weeds of what Reggio is, so could you give us just like a 32nd overview of what Reggio is.
Scott: Well, one of the things that Jen mentioned today was if you go to the web, go to Wikipedia and Google “Reggio Emilia education” you’ll learn about the history. And the history of how it got going is probably just as important as to what it is. But it’s really sort of a creative project method type education where children are encouraged to explore different materials as a way that what would they refer to as the hundred languages which is ways of communicating you know, that are beyond just verbal and mathematical, you know, visual, you know, kinesthetic, a lot of things that Froebel talked about 200 years ago. So, Reggio is a very creative process but what is also unique about it is how they document, how they do assessment. When you go into Reggio school you see a lot of Polaroids, digital images, you know, all that stuff up on the wall. So yeah, it’s it’s quite striking. It’s different than anything else. I’m sure that’s why it’s taking the education world by storm nowadays.
John: So who do we have on deck to tell us a little bit more about this?
Scott: Today we have Jennifer Azzariti, who is an atelierista. She’s a ceramic artist. She’s based in Washington, DC and she was part of one of the first Reggio Emilia-inspired programs here in the United States, which was at the Model Early Learning Center.
Jay: Yeah, she’s been doing this for 29 years.
John: She might know a thing or two about this.
Scott: She knows she knows some stuff. She’s now kind of taken on a pedagogista role, which is more of a … we’ll get into that.
Jay: Yeah, we’ll get into that. Well, let’s dive in and explore Reggio.
Scott: How did you get connected to Reggio Emilia? You know, what, from where you started? What were you doing that suddenly now this changed the trajectory of your life, your career?
Jennifer Azzariti: I think that’s an interesting story about myself. So I studied government and Italian, which was kind of a mistake in my life. When I went to school. I have always worked with my hands. I’ve always been … I don’t like to use the word artist because I feel like it has so many connotations, but it’s the kind of person that I am. And so I denied myself that when I went to college, And then right after school, I graduated and I got an internship at the Capitol Children’s Museum in Washington, DC. And I thought that exhibit design or some kind of work … I always loved museums … would be a wonderful place. But when they heard that I had a background in Italian and materials, they connected me to the preschool, which happened to be upstairs in the Capitol Children’s Museum. And that school was called the Model Early Learning Center. And it was a school for 36 Head Start-eligible children in the District of Columbia, and the director of the museum has was one of the very, very early educators in the United States interested in the Reggio approach. She had the exhibit the hundred languages of children in the museum at that time, and she invited me to be an intern in the school. What was her name? She was her name. So the director is Ann Lewin-Benham. She was the Director of National Learning Center capital Children’s Museum and of that she founded the Model Early Learning Center. And she did the wonderful thing of bringing us Amelia Gambetti, who was a teacher in the Reggio preschools for 25 years, to work with us on a really long-term basis. So Amelia had what … she was a classroom teacher. And again, she sort of retired in Italy, you can retire at different ages and levels. And she came to the United States. And she really lived with us in our … she literally lived in the school itself in an apartment down the hallway. We had a very large space because it was the top of the Children’s Museum. And then she stayed with us for many, many months, over a couple of couple of years. Our staff, the five of us together and all the parents and the children. She was our mentor. She still is my mentor and so … You know, in addition to going to Reggio Emilia and connecting with colleagues there, we had this person living with our culture and really find it. She was finding commonalities, but making sure that we were our own, our own people, our own school of our own identity and our own kind, really valuing our own content. So it was a beautiful relationship. And that’s, that’s kind of how I started as an atelierista. I was an atelierista or a studio teacher.
Scott: So yeah, that’s one of the things so you’re an atelierista, and there’s a pedagogista. So there’s a lot of these Italian terms that I’m kind of wondering what the difference is between the two.
Well, so an atelierista is a person who’s trained in the visual arts but that has really expanded lately. So that’s not it doesn’t have to be just visual arts but a person who’s trained in will say the arts and then is also connected to the classroom. So it’s something that is in partnership and in relationship to the entire culture and and system of the school. It’s not separate.
John: So are they inside the classroom on a day-to-day basis? Or are they more of like an outside entity that the class would go out to and partner with or learn from kind of a … you know what I’m saying .. like a specialist or?
Jennifer: Yeah, it’s so integral, and you can’t separate them. So the culture of the school is about relationships, and about communication and listening. And dialogue is very systemic, as well. And so you have this beautiful mixture of, of I think that creativity and that systemic organization that allows a very organic kind of system, a holistic system, I think it makes any sense for learning. There aren’t rigid divides of okay. You’re the person, right and you work with materials and the teachers don’t and they come to you for this special kind of thing. I think the what the Reggio calls the hundred languages of children is one of the core values of the philosophy … that all languages, that means the language of clay, the language of light, the language of the body, the language of shadow of music … are valid, and should be treated and respected equally for a child, for a person. And so that value is transmitted throughout the whole school.
Scott: What does that look like on a daily basis? So you have some of these values that are there, but then how does that translate to day-to-day?
Jennifer: So in schools and in the United States, I can speak from my experience there. If you have an atelierista, which is often you know, that’s a very, it’s a position that not many schools can have as a dedicated position because of funding it’s to have almost like an extra teacher, is obviously a choice. And so it could be on a daily basis. It depends on like the size of the school, it could be that the atelierista and the teachers are collaborating in the classroom around a project that the children have been working on around the theory about Pluto not being a planet anymore not being considered a planet. So she or he could be recording the GarageBand sounds with along with the children, she might be in the atelia, creating the models for the spaceships that could go up to visit Pluto. She could be introducing weaving to another group of children. He could be working on documentation with teachers, analyzing, observing the documents that we collect, to make hypotheses and to make the learning of the children and the groups visible, the groups and the individuals. So that person has a lot of roles. There’s a lot of roles, the environment, certainly the care and upkeep of the environment and the organization and the development of the environment of the materials to support learning as another … in Reggio they call it the “environment as the third teacher” because most of the classrooms traditionally have two teachers so they consider the environment the third teacher.
Scott: So you’re like an artist in residence almost, you’re available and you’re kind of overseeing things and so, an atelierista is a is a teacher and then pedagogista to is like, a teacher-trainer/supervisor? How does that work?
Jennifer: Yes, which is pretty much what I do that much more now. In my life. I have that role more more frequently just because of the nature of the of my life. Always atelierista, currently a pedagogista. I like to think of the pedagogy set As a thought partner, as a person who really upholds the values of the school and the culture of the school, and that connects connects very much a connector of, of everything that has the pulse on sort of the spirit, and can understand the complexity of how the systems work together. But that also remain very, very tied, I think, to the children and the learning. I think the pedagogista is a person who can read, and I mean read also visually, and synthesize … read and synthesize and connect concepts at and throw the ball … bounce the ball ahead, bounce the ball forward.
John: So a teacher might be working with a child but the pedagogista is able to take kind of an observational role of not just the child but the teacher child relationship, and kind of speak into that and kind of help the teacher foster maybe one step farther than the teacher might be doing on their own? Is that kind of what you’re describing when you saying synthesize?
Jennifer: I think that that the what you’re describing is, is I think in the United States more similar to a coaching kind of role. That that’s what that feels like a little bit more. And I think that what the pedagogy still does though, though, she observes children, sometimes children and teachers working together, a lot of the observation that she does is based on the teachers observations. So their documentation supports. That’s why documentation must be readable and shareable. And so she relies on the teachers. I’m saying she because I’m really thinking about myself in order to explain. I should be really using pedagogista. The pedagogista uses the documents that the teachers collect and the children the children’s voices in order to analyze together with the teachers, most likely, sometimes with parents … sometimes with children, what they’re doing, why they’re doing it and just kind of read between the lines to really see the things that are invisible. Try to bring those forward for what we would maybe call in the United States curriculum. I think the word that they use in Reggio is projecticioni, which is more of flexible that’s what I mean by the systemic flexibility is a system around projecting the work forward that within it has so much flexibility because of that system
Jay: What was the word again?
Oh, that sounds way cooler. I’ll take that one, please.
Scott: Well, but it to me, it sounds very collaborative. It sounds like there’s a lot of adults, they’re all working together. Not competitively, not in some sort of boring role, but a really, you know, actively trying to figure out where these children are at and looking at their, you know what you’ve captured of their work. Why do you suppose Reggio has been so popular the last few decades or so, in America at least?
Jennifer: I think when people see the work, the capabilities of children coming out of the schools in Reggio, you’ve never seen anything like it before. And its own it’s such a different paradigm. At first it’s disbelief. And then you get curious, like, wait a minute. If you see the environments and the beauty in the environment, I think people get affected strongly by the beauty. And sometimes too infrequently. I think they stop there. And it’s very, I think the Reggio approach can be seen as a very like loosey goosey creative arts approach. And I think what they miss, so so much on that first impression is the cognition they miss the cognition and the creativity.
Jay: So we’re hoping that there’s a lot of listeners that aren’t gonna probably have ever heard about Reggio before? How would you kind of explain to them when you’re talking to somebody who’s never heard of Reggio?
Jennifer: I would sigh … and then I would say … I would start with the history of retro and that’s why it gets so long. Because I think you can’t understand the philosophy if you don’t understand the times, the culture of the Reggiani being a like that this approach emerged right after the war …1942 … but don’t quote me on that. Sometimes I get dates confused. But right after the war, the people … the townspeople, in particular, the the women in the town, wanted something different for their children. They wanted quality childcare, they wanted more options instead of the Catholic rule. They wanted and they felt very, very strongly … and I think this comes up a lot right now in the in our times with with COVID. But they that they really wanted to get back to life with a sense of renewal and passion. And the other thing that people maybe don’t know right away is that these schools were for all children. I think sometimes looking at the beauty of the schools in Reggio Emilia, you don’t realize that, if you look at the requirements is that this is published online if you don’t have a grandmother, if you’re a single child, a single-parent child, if you are impoverished, if you are a recent immigrant, you move to the top of the list. And that is again, I think that that is another sort of invisible thing about the Reggio approach. I think it’s easier for me to talk about Reggio In contrast, I think there’s a strong connection between cognition and creativity that that that is an always in alignment that the hundred languages is a value. Creativity is a value, listening and dialogue. And of course, like the thing that I think, I can’t believe I didn’t say this first, but the image of the child as as a strong and competent and intelligent human being from birth, and I know everybody says that, oh, yeah, of course, I think children are rich and strong and competent. But what the educators there have have shown us is something so much more, the see more, they saw more deeply.
Scott: You touched on it a little bit earlier, but I think that what what really struck me was the documentation. Because, that’s really the first thing that I see parents … they want to know about test scores, they want to know how do I know this is a good school, and a lot of what I’ve always based it on is you look at the children and you see in their faces, we actually had a chance to do some filming and some Reggio programs here in Grand Rapids and you know, we made sure we captured a lot of that. But more importantly, you know, people, especially these quote/unquote stakeholders, they want to know, you know whether or not they’re getting their money’s worth for all this. So they need that documentation. And I’ve always just been fascinated how differently the Reggio Emilia approach handles that whole subject matter. So if you want to talk a little bit about how that process works in the classroom?
Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, documentation is part again, that goes back to a value of listening and believing that a child is worth listening to. And that listening includes, again, visual listening. And so, as an educator you become … you develop many many systems for observation, whether that be videotaping, audio recording, note taking, visual note taking and that paying attention to the child, a child and children. I think that’s something that also needs to be articulated. It’s not only about teacher and one child. It’s a very collaborative classroom situation. And so learning in groups is another really important part of, you know, we look for not just what Jennifer is doing, but what the group is doing and Jennifer’s role in that group. But the learning of the group is equally important to that to the individual learning.
Scott: Do you discuss these things with the documentation? I mean, how is that use with the parents and the other collaborators in your school?
Jennifer: So the documents we can let collect all of those video audio note taking things are discussed with teachers, they are brought used a lot back with the children so our documents help us know where to go. They serve as a memory For the children, they’re an indispensable I would say like for an artist, that’s your sketchbook and you’re in your notes, right? It’s it’s what what you use to function and go forward. But with but they are also used in conferences. They can be organized into a PowerPoint where you’re again, you’re synthesizing some of the concepts of what children and teachers and are doing and learning. And you can re present that it could be a documentation could be a video, it could be a PowerPoint that children put together of an experience that they had. So the it’s takes many forms. It could be teachers drawing of a child’s process of learning something, but those documents are used for assessment and for communication, and for purchase Etzioni and so many other things. Yeah.
Scott: Well, so you were your background is as a fine artist, you’re a ceramic artist. But did you have training as a teacher as an early childhood educator when you came into this?
Jennifer: I did not. I did not. I had a lot of very many diverse artistic I took a lot of classes as a child. So every kind of art class I was signed up for since I was like a two year old. And then I, I did not go to art school, but I did go get a postback. So I did not have technically formal training in early childhood. I went and got my master’s degree afterwards.
Scott: So what attracted you to being there with these children? I mean, you could have just been alone all day long in your studio, making wonderful ceramic vases and you know … what attracts you to being there with young children?
Jennifer: Well, one is there are so many things first of all, the likeness in general role of being in school and being a constant learner. Another one is that I got to use the thing that I love the most, which was like my ability to use many materials, that that’s actually a bonus in a Reggio-inspired school, that I don’t have like a one specialty thing. But I got, I got to use what I know and to share that knowledge with children who take, take things and run with them and to be able to partner and be inspired by them as well. I think it’s a really, it’s a beautiful coexistence should I say?
Jay: Yeah, because speaking of multiple materials, can you explain to people what a classroom looks like?
Jennifer: I hope that if you walked into a regular class and the first thing you would feel is like you were kind of at home, that it was an atmosphere of calm. I think that that is something that you seems like it’s not a video You will sense but there is a Reggio-inspired classroom I think you can find a level a hum a beautiful buzz and hum. And I don’t want to say silence because it’s not silence but there’s it pervades a sense of like trust and security, and warmth. That’s the spirit. I think there’s an sense of organization and beauty beak that comes from care and respect of the end for the materials and a high quality of materials. All materials are valid. That’s what I wanted to say. I think there’s a misconception that you have to have natural materials. Yeah. In a Reggio inspired classroom, every material diversity is a value. So all everything is is fair game. From metal to plastic to natural materials to water to sand, everything’s in material.
Scott: You mentioned the phrase Reggio-inspired and I’ve always really admired that so there isn’t like a a Reggio way there isn’t like this is how you do Reggio?
Jennifer: No. Only the schools in Reggio municipally funded infant toddlers and preschoolers can be called Reggio schools. So in the United States and if you’re in another country, we can be inspired by Reggio but to be Reggio-inspired means to be yourself, right to know yourself, to know your families to know your neighborhood, your community, and to be your best self. So I don’t want to be retro because that would make no sense for the children that I work with in the middle of Washington, DC.
John: Yeah, that makes sense.
Jennifer: It’s not something that you can like transplant you have to become yourself and live your own values. And I think that that’s part of being Reggio-inspired.
John: So is is the kind of piggybacking on that, you know, is the Reggio-inspired schools, are they under any kind of direction or control? Not control? But you know, are they connected to the Reggio schools in Italy? Or?
Jennifer: No, I would say No, they are not. So there are consultants like Amelia and other people that collaborate with schools in the United States and all over the world. But there is no at this point official affiliation with the schools in Reggio. In fact, they tried that with with my school with my first school, the Model Early Learning Center, we were actually the first accredited school, and then immediately they said, We don’t want to do this. It doesn’t make sense. That’s not that we’re not in the business of like accrediting schools like a Montessori program or other kinds of schools.
John: Is there any control problems are like, quality problems or differences in “this Reggio-inspired versus this Reggio-inspired” and they’re like completely different or is that not really been an issue?
Jennifer: I mean, I would say yes, there is no way at this point to say that one school is more Reggio-inspired than another. If, if I were looking as a parent, I mean, I could say that I would look at … people ask me this all the time … but I would look at how much how much and what kind of professional development the faculty has had. What kind of direct exposure to the educators or programs in Reggio Emilia have they had or conferences in the United States where the educators from Reggio are speaking. Because I think that’s an important element so that you know, it’s not watered down.
Scott: So I would imagine then Reggio schools in different parts of our country would look different. A Reggio program in Texas be different than Maine would be different than California. What what unites them How do you know when you’re walking? into a Reggio program without somebody telling you
Jennifer: … besides the fancy language?
Jennifer: I think this I think working in small groups is something that stands out to people. I think the complexity of the environment and and the work of the children could often stand out. Documentation … the visual display of documentation is something that people notice quality materials, again, the the abundance and diversity of the materials. I mean, in an ideal school, I think that parents and teachers and children working together. The role of the parents and the families in the life of the school is something that would be kind of remarkable for an average preschool.
Scott: So, you know, when we do our conferences, for instance, we did our frybo event. Last October, we had some people from outside the country and we were in Boston. There’s a major Reggio presence in Boston. I mean, Lella Gandini is there. And so the gals from Scotland said, Why is there so much Reggio at this Froebel conference? And it’s like, well, that’s just there’s a lot of Reggio here in Boston. So I guess the question is, why is there not more Reggio in more places? Is there something limiting it from happening?
Jennifer: I think that’s a really important question. It’s something that I’ve run out a group called the DC Reggio Emilia Alliance. It’s a study group for educators in DC and it’s one of the questions that we are looking at right now in our civic group about inequities. So in our country, unfortunately, it’s interesting the Reggio approach has to it’s almost divided. The very, very wealthy schools are in general this is a general stereotype, inspired by Reggio or can be inspired by Reggio. You also see There’s also a wave of Head Start programs that have gotten funding for the Reggio approach also and so, but in general, I would say in the United States, the Reggio approach is for wealthy people, because it costs money in terms of capital improvements in terms of materials. Because it’s a philosophy and not a curriculum. Depending on how you are funded for your school. You have to have an assessment system that is tied to your curriculum in order to get public funding. Reggio doesn’t have an assessment system, because again, it’s not a curriculum. Many schools even if their public schools, cannot afford some of the structures like coaches or professional development on an ongoing basis that schools … that educators … really need, because there’s no handbook, there’s no teaching 101 for the Reggio approach. And so it is a struggle for educators and it’s a struggle for our country to find some equity around this so that more children and families can have access to what I feel is a beautiful way of learning.
Jay: What is the process for a teacher to become a Reggio teacher?
John: There’s the sigh.
Jay: I get the “sigh” questions!
Jennifer: It’s right there. There isn’t one. There are programs. There’s a program at the Boulder Journey School that has a pedagogista and a training for educators. I think it’s a Master’s that you can get. There are a couple of institutions around the United States. You can take courses Now there are some courses in Reggio Emilia, but most teachers read. They go online they go to conferences … the NAREA conference, which is North American Reggio Emilia Alliance. They start study groups or join local study groups in their area. They visit schools. Visiting schools is one of the most helpful things I think for educators. There’s nothing like that.
Scott: How did you stumble upon Froebel? How does it relate to what you do?
Jennifer: So I was trying to think of that of like, “when was the first time I heard?” … and I found my book [holds up Inventing Kindergarten by Norman Brosterman]. I went to the Hirshorn …
Jay: There it is.
Jennifer: The Hirshorn has this special sale and they tell you like I’m on this email list when the books go on Super sale price and they clear it out and I found that book there in like, I don’t know 90 something. And in fact, that inspired so I love that book. I read everything and then the sewing cards, the paper sewing? That inspired, now that you mentioned it, a workshop that I did at Eric Carle, where we sewed on paper, with Lella, right? And a lot of people from Leslie were there. And then so it just spoke to me It spoke to me as an artist, it spoke to me, visually, my son looked at the book this morning because I had it on the couch and he’s like, Oh my god, just just these things alone on a shelf are so gorgeous to look at aesthetically. And they really speak to that aspect. And then I never got to play with a set though I have. So I would love to actually play with a set of these but again, I understand from my design sensibility, why they work and I was just playing with forms with vessels. And I was creating … I call it “oozing” … so I would take two panels of things and like connected like bricks, almost the most important part of the piece for me was how the materials oozed out of the joints. And then I got excited about those joints and those that space and so I made I brought it to, I was playing with affordable This is not clay. This is like wow, I was playing with some of the pieces but inadvertently just because I thought I would just focus on the linear aspect, I think that naturally I work in a two dimensional space, but I bring it to three dimensions because I like to hand build. So I’m thinking in a planar way, and so I have to build the volume right from nothing, and I have to figure out what that is. And so like geometry started to come into play. For me. I also think that one other thing that made me go back to geometry was trying to learn and I’m terrible at it, but Fusion 360 and trying to begin to work in a in a three-dimensional workspace and it is mind boggling for me. And I had to … I’m relearning geometry. And I’m terrible at it. So for me to combine, like to go back to my hand and then try to work my brain and my hands together. Support how I learn. And it’s so challenging. It’s SO challenging. But I was just playing. I was just playing.
Scott: Yes, as it should be.
Jennifer: This is my clay piece I brought my clay piece too
Jennifer: Isn’t is that cool?
Jay: That is so cool, oh my gosh.
John: You’ll have to send us some photos so we can put them on the the blog for the viewers or listeners because they can’t see this.
Scott: Yes, send me some photos. We’ll put them up so people can see it.
John: We’re coming to the end of our time together. But one kind of question we wanted to end on was what something that you find hopeful as we kind of navigate these trying times? Is there something … a piece of hope or something that inspires you that you can leave our listeners with?
Jennifer: I have to say that one thing I want to be really positive voice for what teachers are going through right now with online learning. And I really feel that the Reggio approach can support … this is I said to the teachers that I work with … that we have been working for so many years, thinking about learning visually, and thinking about these hundred languages, that we have this incredible wealth of experience that we can use to our advantage with this new digital format. I think I’m thinking about the preeminence right now of visual learning because we have to, we have to communicate online, we have to find ways to connect visually, and that is a benefit. And so the more ways that we have to express ourselves, the better we can have dialogues with each other.
Jay: Well, that was amazing. I’m glad we had that time.
John: Yeah. For people who have never been exposed to the Reggio approach, the Reggio-inspired approach, it’s very unique and I thought, you know, she had some really Amazing things. I didn’t know that they did that were just really helpful.
Scott: Yeah, I mean, if you have a chance to go and observe a Reggio-inspired program, I think it will make very clear pretty quickly that we know how to educate young children. And so we really need to focus on what it is that’s keeping us from doing a better job of it.
John: Yeah. And it’s a it’s a shame that it’s only available for, you know … that there’s money that has to be the barrier for the children who don’t have access.
Jay: Yeah. I mean, with things like … highlights, like inclusivity and diversity. Yeah, some of the power of the Reggio system is the inclusivity and diversity, which is obviously something that we definitely need right now.
Scott: Well, and I think what was so great that she … I think she’s right, that it’s a pivotal moment right now. And I think there is some hope that we can combine this approach with the technology. And hopefully arrive at something that’s closer to what we want it to be.
John: Well, thanks everyone for listening today. And there’s gonna be lots of links in the show notes to hopefully some of the photos will be on our blog that some of the stuff that she showed us and, you know, lots of ways to connect. So definitely check those out and appreciate you listening in today.
Scott: Yeah, definitely check us out at www.pathtolearning.us where we’ll post a lot of links and we appreciate you listening and we’ll catch you next time.
Jay: Thanks, everybody.
John: See ya.